An Interview with William Bart
by Migellito

William Bart creates interface designs for the MacOS, concentrating on Kaleidoscope
(which includes full icon sets as well as window designs) , Audion and SoundJam .

Click this image for a preview of BBX Platimum

Bill's designs have been at the center of some degree of controversy within the last few months.  Several others have created designs which either duplicated his exactly, or were clearly inspired by his work.  Some have felt his response was too severe.  Some have agreed.

What is ripping?  Is there a reason we don't call it plagiarizing?  Is it stealing?

Where is the line between 'inspired by' and 'stolen from?'

Are some rips ok?  Is it ok to rip a commercial OS?  A movie?  A beer can?

What does a designer do about it if it happens?

What if the one doing it is a respected designer in their own right?

How close does it have to be to have to ask permission?  A similar look?  Cut and Paste?

Aren't there laws covering this already?  Hasn't this happened in other fields for years?

How would you answer?

Tek: Let me begin by asking you how long you've been working with computers.

BB: Geez... since I was wee... about 12 years old... but only with Macs for the past 9 years... before that there was about a 5 year gap between my IIVX and my Commodore 64.

Tek: IIVX?  Could you tell us a little bit more about that machine?

BB: My brother and I sold our souls to buy a IIVX, which was a slow 030 Mac... at the time it cost us about 13,000 cdn... but we had to have it once we saw Photoshop for the first time... I threw it out with the trash recently, actually... but I learned a lot on that little machine with only 20MB of RAM...

Tek: :)  it's amazing what some of the old machines could accomplish with so little memory.  the C-64 is also a great example of that.  Was that your introduction to computing?

BB: The 64 was a totally different experience than the Mac... I can hardly remember how I got by... I do recall doing some minor programming, but it's all lost now - that was almost 20 years ago...

Tek: What is your art background?  Have you always concentrated on the digital side?

BB: No, I'm actually a visual artist... I paint, sculpt, draw... but I'm also the kind of person who loses patience... not good when you're trying to complete a painting... so the transition to computers was a natural progression - saved my bacon, so to speak. If I hadn't jumped in and learned Photoshop (et al), I'd probably still be starving and producing obscure comics that would never get finished.

Tek: :)

Do you still do much tactile art?

BB: Unfortunately, not as much as I would like... I work as the creative director for a very busy agency... my weeks sometimes work their way up to the hundreds in hours - I really only get little spurts of time to myself... the GUI stuff is easy to squeeze in during the daily 2-4 hour commute on the Powerbook... but there are usually too many interruptions for me to get really involved in the painterly stuff... it'll change eventually...

Tek: How do you see it changing?  Will gui design become a career for you?

BB: I'd love that, but I'm still learning and building a reputation (plus the groundwork like a real website)... I have some really big plans for licensed OSX themes and shareware themes of my own once I get the ball rolling... but I'd really want to make a complete make-over kit worth the $10 bucks or whatever I'd charge before I did that... I'd have to offer something that *I* would pay for. Everything I've done so far has been free...

Tek: What form would the make-over kit take?  A suite of k-scheme, audion face, etc.?

BB: Yeah.. like something like BBX-PLATINUM is turning into now. But this is my first undertaking of this magnitude with the kit idea, so the one I eventually offer up as shareware would have to be complete out of the gate... at the very least, I would have to generate enough hype to make the initial buy-in (which would qualify a user for just about every component developed for the kit down the road) juicy enough to make it seem worthwhile.

Tek: This seems like a fantastic idea, especially the 'subscription' aspect.  It would surprise few mac users to register shareware for a kit like that, but pc users would be shocked i think, at this point.

BB: Well, I think the sheer volume of users creating GUI stuff for the PC means that there's a wealth of free stuff available, so why pay? But there are so few Mac people doing this sort of thing in earnest right now... probably less than a dozen really... so the good stuff comes along with less frequency and there are less quality elements available due to the drastic difference in the amount of users doing this stuff... I could be wrong..

Tek: Actually, i was talking with someone earlier today (a pc user and skin artist) who commented that the mac designers boasted some of the most talented artists in the whole field.  I definitely agree about the issue of volume though.

Tek: What about the Mac drew you that direction as opposed to other systems?

BB: Well, most professional designers (web, print, etc.) probably work on a Mac... and most designers like to personalize their environments, I guess. I actually had a guy who has been very seriously involved with the Windows 'Whistler' skin project at Microsoft write to tell me that he thought my stuff blew away what they where doing to counter the 'Aqua' threat... I told him I'd be willing to contribute but I think he thought I was joking.

PC's always seemed clunky to me... I've always believed computers should be a transparent tool... I don't care how my TV works inside, so why should I care about what happens in my computer? Something about watching that BIOS startup thing on the PC always unsettled me. Plus it was on a Mac I first encountered Photoshop... had it been a PC, I might easily have ended up there. Too late now...

Tek: 'I was a Microsoft skinner' now in paperback...  :)

The world of a corporate gui designer must be quite interesting, but quite different as well.

What do you think of Aqua?

BB: Aqua's nice... I suppose if I was your average user, I'd be pleased as punch. But now that I've tasted the forbidden fruit of customization, it's not enough - I can only imagine what I might be able to do with 32-bit windowing and animation sequences... I'm actually laying the groundwork for a port of BBX to OSX now, but I'm still waiting for a way to get it there. I'm holding out for some benevolent shareware developer to find a way...

Tek: Many have talked about the exclusion of native themes within osx, and the implications.  How long do you think it will be before we see something like k-scope for osx?

BB: Not long, I hope. I'm pretty sure Greg Landweber sees the opportunity here and will do what he can to grab the bull by the horns - I just don't know how easy Apple is making it for developers to hack into appearances. I pray they allow some sort of theming... their arguments against are pretty weak... hopefully the multiple options in the upcoming Windows release will spur some sort of response on Apple's part.

Tek: If it doesn't, I think they're missing the launch of the ship they built.  It wasn't long ago that Steve jobs was show-casing alternate gui-s, but now their strategy is rather opaque.

Do you have any personal insights into what their strategy might be?

BB: I've 'heard' that theming or altering Aqua is indeed part of their long-term strategy... I can certainly understand why they'd be keeping that under wraps right now... marketing OSX initially will require a consistent look. But by all means, I hope they either  a) keep it open for those inclined to create their own  or  b) contract enthusiastic established schemers and skinners to build them for them (and I'd say yes in an instant!)...

Tek: Yes, even though it would cost way too much to live in Cupertino..  :)

Why do you think Apple never released the official versions of designs like drawingboard and gizmo?  The poor image of os9 theming?  Part of long term X plans?

(wild speculation alert)

BB: :) I dunno... at the time, they had other worries - it might have seemed too last-ditch, maybe. I personally never liked gizmo (hi-tech was ok, I guess)... but I thought drawing board was pretty neat. Kaleidoscope has always been popular and high-profile shareware on the Mac... I've often thought they must want to keep some developers around, otherwise they would have incorporated many obvious improvements that shareware covers already.

Tek: True.  They could have easily taken a path less friendly to 3rd party developers, as Microsoft has at times done.

Apple, in what has apparently become an annual ritual, is cracking down on Mac and Windows skins that emulate Aqua.  Do you think this will actually discourage designers?

BB: Not designers that matter, no. What is the point of plagiarizing Aqua? Apple has every right to protect their intellectual property, as far as I'm concerned. Inspired by Aqua, that's a different story... but these are direct ripoffs, not 'inspired' pieces. The vast majority use pixels captured either directly from OSX or from screenshots. Zero originality = zero sympathy, at least as I see it. A lot of wasted effort for what? Exercise?

Tek: Let's shift gears a bit, and turn back to your own personal experience with skin design.  What are your influences for gui work?

BB: Oh... well, I must confess I never use any themes but those I build myself. Everything I release I build for myself initially... if I can't see using it for extended periods, it never gets released. I've got TONS of dead-end schemes that have serious flash, but they have to be user-friendly (with me as the user) or they rot on my hard drive. I'll raid them for elements, now and then - but they go nowhere, even though the previews alone would generate massive downloads. They'd just join the countless other schemes people load up for the wow factor and then get irritated with. If nothing else, my schemes are extremely user-friendly (at least to my taste). They seem to all be hi-tech with lots of curves and highly tactile feedback... futuristic fantasy GUIs, I guess. But being futuristic, I have to imagine them being an improvement over what came before...

Tek: You seem to have set up excellent criteria for yourself.  Where do you find your inspiration?

BB: Well, BBX-PLATINUM was inspired by the whack of silver surfaces I've been seeing everywhere lately ... especially the new-model hype cars like the beetle and the PT cruiser. I wanted to see if I couldn't emulate that surfacing in a scheme without it being too glitzy - I think I've succeeded, I dunno. I certainly seem to have hit a nerve with the Mac/GUI bunch - I'm still being overwhelmed with dozens of emails every week (it was hundreds at first, but it's slowed down a bit ;) ... I've gotten tons of mileage out of this one... my pixelpalooza entry featuring the icons is a close second in the system-replacement category (the guy beating me has done a bang up job, so I'm not bitter)... and I've just finished an MP3 skin for Audion with Paul Johnson with 3 more MP3 skinz in development... something about the surfacing model I developed for BBX really lends itself to 'sculpting'. I find it far more exciting than your average grayscale metal-emulation scheme... something about the bluey hue I used gives it far greater range than your standard gray set. I'm still bubbling with ideas on this one... I have no idea what will come next (as far as components go)... the MP3 skinz should keep me busy, though.

Tek: What players are in the works, if i might ask?

BB: At least 2 more for Audion and 1 for SoundJam. I prefer SoundJam, but there aren't as many qualified skin-coders it seems and the Audion skinning community is exploding with creativity right now... some seriously fruitful collaborations taking place. The skinz I'm developing right now are essentially designed by myself and then assembled by collaborators... although Paul Johnson did contribute serious beauty to BBX-TYCHO.

Tek: If i personally had to pick one application as the highlight for gui skinning, on any platform, right now it would be Audion.  It's arguably the current showcase for the best work in the field.

You mention creating a SoundJam skin for the set..  do you think this might head off attempts at ripping the design?

BB: Yeah, and wait 'till you see f2 by Ric Zito and Paul Johnson. Droool.

I'm not sure what you mean by ripping the design. The preview concept skin I popped into the initial BBX-PLATINUM releases was really simplistic. What's emerging in the final designs is something else entirely... very sleek cartoon lunar-lander... I don't think the originals would imply that direction, but if you're implying that someone might see the finished Audion face and port it (or something very much like it) to SoundJam, I'm really not worried about it. It's been a long long time since I've seen a new SoundJam skin... besides, I've already had to deal with 'impostors' producing BBX skinz for other apps (don't ask for details) without credit where it's due... a simple alert to the host about copyright violation put that to a quick end... I suppose if I ever had to defend my intellectual property, I would. My agency has a well-paid lawyer who spends most of his time waiting for something to do... I'm sure legal backup would be fairly effortless.

I'm not an unfair bastard or anything, but look at it this way - in the case of BBX-PLATINUM, I've poured hundreds (I stopped counting) of hours of my life into producing something totally original... endless tweaking, late nights, global colour-shifts... all those damned icons (every one in the OS patched)... I'll be damned if somebody's going to take that effort and garner some undeserved credit for themselves. Seems reasonable to me.

Tek: Indeed, and yes that's what i was referring to by the term ripping.  It's been a chronic problem in windows skinning for some time, especially with Winamp.  I had recently read about an application specifically designed to convert audion faces to SoundJam themes, as well.  Actually, I had intended to inquire about a certain a-dock theme I saw recently, but I'll respect your above request to not ask for details.

What is your opinion on authorized ports?  For example, I'm certain there are designers interested in requesting permission to turn bbx platinum into a WindowBlinds skin.

BB: The A-Dock thing.. yes, while I'm sure the guy was simply being careless, I don't think it was an intentional rip-off. If he had simply come to me with the idea, I would have offered that we collaborate and packaged it up nice, giving the guy some credit, but he obviously doesn't read fine print :) and to make matters worse, I didn't realize it had been created until I was putting the finishing touches on my own A-Dock skin - so it turns out that he gets nothing but humiliation at this point. I feel bad (and I don't)... he obviously likes BBX-PLATINUM. But he has yet to contact me about his being pulled, so...

Authorized ports are a good idea, but I'm a bit of a control freak... I'd love to see BBX-PLATINUM on Windows, but the author would have to concede to my art direction and be happy playing second banana... they'd be an honoured collaborator worthy of full credit where it was due... but to date, I haven't been contacted by any WindowBlinds developers (and am I really ready to build a replacement icon set for the entire windows system?). I guess it would take somebody who was a talented designer in their own right, and what would the likelihood of somebody that talented wanting to concede total control to a Mac GUI guy? Pretty slim, I'd imagine.

Tek: hmm.. one never knows :)

What sort of software tools do you use for your gui work?  Are you strictly a Photoshop man?

BB: Photoshop is my primary tool (I practically live there), but I'll do precise glyphs and stuff in Illustrator and lighting/surfacing models in a 3D application once in a while. It's amazing what photoshop can do when you finally figure out the 'physics' of pixels and the application. I've built pretty complex Actions that go along way in emulating a virtual assembly line and keep the tedium to a minimum. Plus I have that back-catalogue of buttons, edges, sliders, notches, windoids, rockers, glyphs, and other goodies I was talking about.

Tek: true :)  Speaking of your back catalogue, it's sort of a short-lived tradition at Teknidermy to ask the artists we feature to share something out of their dustbin as a download treat for our readers.  Is there any of the more extreme high-flash stuff you might be willing to post with us?

BB: As in a fully-built usable scheme that's just sitting there? No... nothing I'd wish on the general public, anyway :) I'll have to poke around... I'll try and come up with 'something', I guess... a quick look at what I have on this machine reveals very little I'd be willing to admit some part in :)

Tek: lol..  I understand, as I'm a perfectionist myself :)  If you're willing to take a look and poke around a bit, we'd be quite flattered.

Knowing your software tools, it leads me to wonder about your hardware equipment.  What are you running your Photoshop on?

BB: At home, it's a 500 mhz G4, lots of RAM, 3 big HDs, 21" monitor, same at work... on the road, it's a 500 mhz G3 FireWire Powerbook with lots of RAM and a wimpy 12 GB HD.

Tek: That's a nice machine for work.  Are you in a position where you can use your graphic talents?

BB: Oh yeah, all the time. I was pulled in on contract because of my strong illustration skills (we do a lot of really funky advertising and promotions for a lot of really funky companies that like weird stuff)... I still do a lot of hands-on stuff, but I also oversee overall creative concept and development as well. I just don't get sucked into production like I used to. Plus I do freelance illustration on the side. But it's all in Canada pretty much, so unless you're up here, I can't really cite examples. If you're Canadian and you've seen the Wild Cherry Pepsi character in-store and on TV, he's mine - I developed and illustrated the character. The huge Simpsons promo with Doritos & Lays, that was mine (won the 20th Century Fox Golden Homey for that one)... umm... there was a funky Fruitworks campaign with this 3D Jules Verne-type fruit gear factory, that was mine... The Spirit of HMV Christmas campaign with the tattooed angel wing creative from last Xmas (99)... Jeff's dog, Fluffy - for Playdium in '98 & '99, that was one of my funkier illustrations... I get to do lots of crazy stuff... I like being hands-on when there's some glory in it.

Tek: That's quite the resume.  We have quite a few Canadian readers, and a Canadian staff member as well, so I'm sure they'll recognize your work.

BB: That would be cool. I had the opposite happen when a freelancer came in to work for us and suddenly realized that I was *that* William Bart... turns out he was a big fan of my GUI stuff.

Tek: hehe..  it must have been rather surprising to both of you :)

Finally, I'd like to ask you to roughly take us through your basic creative process for creating a new gui design.

BB: There's really no basic method. I basically mock up a windoid in Photoshop with scroll bars, document area, finder header and widgets... I pushed and nudge and smear and filter and basically tweak the daylights out of it until I like what I see and then I'll pop it into an existing theme and start driving it around. I pretty much have to see finder windows, an alert, the menu bar, maybe a few other elements before I go back and revise what I've done so far. Sometimes what started out as a push-button will be stretched into a window, or the menu bar will turn into a slider track... I basically start of with a few bits rendered in the surface I'm using... a rounded rectangle, some spheres... everything generally evolves  out of a few select pieces, just stretched and rotated and retooled. I like to work at 200% as well, it's much more forgiving and what you see at 50% zoom is exactly what you'll get when you res down. I also find adjustment layers invaluable and I usually end up saving a copy at any crucial point so I can go back again of I take things too far. That's about it.

Tek: It's easy to see you approach this very professionally, and the results show it.  I'd like to thank you again for your time, and for sharing so much with us.

Good luck with all your projects!